WonderBrick
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| posted on 27/1/2004 at 22:40 |
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GameMethod.com Roundtable Week 2: Realms of Torment
Dionysis of GameMethod.com brings us this...
Week 2: Realms of Torment
Don’t confuse Realms of Torment with ‘just another fantasy game.’ Unless
every fantasy game you’ve played has, in the words of the lead designer,
"...Skill based PC's system, bloodlines, full PvP, permadeath situations,
master and apprentice system, dynamic faction system, dynamic alignment
system, fame, new combat system and so on..."
To get a better idea about how this game will really be, I asked Dan
Antonescu, the lead designer of realms of torment a few questions. A quick
glimpse of what’s to come can be summed up by Dan’s feelings on permadeath,
"As a more than necessary ingredient to put the danger and accomplishment
feeling back into were it belongs: player's hearts!" I can only say one
thing: Amen!
Without permadeath, the act of dying in an MMORPG is only a time-sink
mechanic. You lose a bit of experience, you lose a piece of equipment, big
deal. After a short time, you’re back on the treadmill...going where again?
Without a harsh penalty for messing up (because, death is you messing up)
the world loses its feeling of Action vs. Consequence. Permadeath isn’t the
only way to give the players an exhilarating feeling, but with increases in
stability of networks and that sort of technology it seems like a more
viable solution. Of course, there is always that problem that when you lose
your uber warrior Sir-Destructo you won’t want to start again. Realms of
Torment (and other upcoming PvP/PD games) alleviate this problem with a
family system. Your character may be dead and rotting, but his family is
back with vengeance. You can play as a family member who has similar skills
and the same family name (or something along those lines). It’s only a
matter of time until the family mechanic is merged with RTS or "The Sims
Online" idea to make a full life simulator. You play your character, your
girlfriend plays your wife. You make some virtual babies and your friends
play them. There’s more to do than just beating ants over the head with
swords and sticks, you could do all those fun "Sims Online" activities as
well; talk about cross-genre marketing.
I asked Dan a set of similar questions as last week’s discussion to be able
to compare/contrast between the different games I’m talking about.
For more, including an interview and pictures, please
check here.
Thanks Dionysis!
[Edited on 27/1/2004 by WonderBrick]
"... I don't like blind bitching any more than I like blind praise."
-Boyar
"If your game lacks balance or doesn't have a vision that the developers
are working towards, such as in the case of UO, then you're going to get a
hodge-podge mess.
Instead of "Hey, that looks cool. Let's try it in our game," we need to
hear more of "We're here. We need to be there. Let's get to there." Doing
more of the latter approach you'll hear the true sound of contented fans:
coins dropping in the till." -Tymaron
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Mezoban
Not a Nuub 
Registered: 7/4/2003 Location: Michigan, USA Member Is Offline Mood: I got a Mac!
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| posted on 28/1/2004 at 03:51 |
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Perma-death is an interesting concept, but the key problem I'd probably
never play a MMORPG that uses perma-death is because, as we all know, the
majority of the time we die in these games usually ends up being because of
other people.
Be it the cleric of the group forgetting to heal, or losing connection, or
some putz pulling a whole dungeon on top of you thus saving their own ass
but having you pushing up daisies.
No thanks, I couldn't even imagine the asses in games like this knowing
that they can cause someone to die forever. Most of them wouldn't think
twice about whacking someone and dying in the process if they knew they
could really cheese someone off. It'd be a new form of sport for the
griefers.
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Dionysis
Semi-Nuub
Registered: 13/1/2004 Member Is Offline
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| posted on 28/1/2004 at 04:54 |
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Sure sure, that would be the case IF they could get away with it. In rot
permadeath is only circumstantial. You can incur PD by going to a crazy
hard dungeon, or challenging somebody to a duel to the death. Usually you
're-spawn'.
If Permadeath is on all the time it isn't a very good solution, what if you
ISP goes down or something? that would make me want to quit. PD would bring
up a really interesting game model that i beleive you could tweak to the
point where players 'actually care' about their avatar beyond the stats and
#'s.
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ThurstonofGL
Spammer
Registered: 13/10/2002 Location: Washington, DC Member Is Offline Mood: None
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| posted on 29/1/2004 at 00:05 |
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I agree with PD all the way.. but it does need some tweaking. Imagine this
for a moment:
in UO, if you flag and are killed, you are perma-deathed. In addition,
there are areas of the map where any time you die you are PD'd. Oh, and
there aren't any bugs that let you flag someone else aggressor.
Now there is a genuine risk vs reward system in that would allow theiving
and murdering and looting, because while the daily life of a farmer might
lead to you getting jumped, your stuff being stolen, and you having to get
resurrected somewhere.. if you happen to defend yourself succesfully, the
would-be assassin is back to childhood training.
This would limit the number of anti-social characters.. while certainly not
eliminating them. This would also allow for hard-core players to have
areas where they could risk it all for greater rewards.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary and
those that don't.
The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Eigth Level of Hell
- the Malebolge!
Here is how you matched up against all the
levels:
Take the Dante's Inferno
Test
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WonderBrick
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| posted on 29/1/2004 at 14:13 |
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I like the situationmentioned in the interview, where someone could
challenge their guildmaster to fight, at penalty of permadeath. Alot of
creative situations could make permadeath work, yet still keep the safety
all of us currently are used to.
"... I don't like blind bitching any more than I like blind praise."
-Boyar
"If your game lacks balance or doesn't have a vision that the developers
are working towards, such as in the case of UO, then you're going to get a
hodge-podge mess.
Instead of "Hey, that looks cool. Let's try it in our game," we need to
hear more of "We're here. We need to be there. Let's get to there." Doing
more of the latter approach you'll hear the true sound of contented fans:
coins dropping in the till." -Tymaron
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Slick
Semi-Nuub
Registered: 11/7/2003 Member Is Offline
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| posted on 29/1/2004 at 18:27 |
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After reading this I went to their website to check this game out more. It
looks really cool. But I found out that not only are there PD situations
but also every char is doomed from the start. They are going to have an
aging system and your char will die after so many in game hours. Also chars
can suffer severe wounds that never heal completely that they carry with
them the rest of their lives.
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Dionysis
Semi-Nuub
Registered: 13/1/2004 Member Is Offline
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| posted on 29/1/2004 at 19:53 |
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If you dont think your gonna live forever, maybe you won't hoard all that
useless shit in your house and get out and play for once eh? i think that's
the mentality behind it.
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ThurstonofGL
Spammer
Registered: 13/10/2002 Location: Washington, DC Member Is Offline Mood: None
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| posted on 29/1/2004 at 20:21 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Slick
After reading this I went to their website to check this game out more. It
looks really cool. But I found out that not only are there PD situations
but also every char is doomed from the start. They are going to have an
aging system and your char will die after so many in game hours. Also chars
can suffer severe wounds that never heal completely that they carry with
them the rest of their lives.
Yeah.. long-term wounds.. another great idea. I like these guys so far.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary and
those that don't.
The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Eigth Level of Hell
- the Malebolge!
Here is how you matched up against all the
levels:
Take the Dante's Inferno
Test
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JBStrider
Not a Nuub
Registered: 28/6/2002 Location: GL, NV, Siege Member Is Offline Mood: Zzzzzzzz
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| posted on 30/1/2004 at 00:57 |
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You guys fucking kill me.
Most of you pissed and moaned so bad UO removed stat loss.
NOW you LOVE PD?????????????
What the fuck is the difference?
Risk vs Reward. All the Fel reds wanted nothing to do with stat loss (risk)
for killing blues and stealing their shit (reward). Now you are going to
embrace Permadeath? That’s the ultimate stat loss!!!!!
PvPer = Fickle
While I agree that no PvP allowed does make for a boring game I have always
said the risk for player killing should be VERY high. If the potential
reward is high (no insurance) then the potential risk shoudl be high. No in
UO (both Tram and Fel) there is no risk for high rewards.
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ThurstonofGL
Spammer
Registered: 13/10/2002 Location: Washington, DC Member Is Offline Mood: None
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| posted on 30/1/2004 at 16:23 |
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Excellent point. I'll make another one.. the people in SWG who were the
primary impetus for moving from a PermaDeath to a Skill loss system were
people who wanted to use their uber-characters (Jedi) to PvP. In other
words, we want the advantage without the risk. We want to be able to PK
without the risk of losing our characters.
I think PermaDeath is attractive to any PK who thinks they will be able to
PD other players to their heart's content and keep other players from
becoming more powerful than them by griefing regularly. It becomes less
attractive when they realise that it is specifically tuned so that a PKer
has the most to lose.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary and
those that don't.
The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Eigth Level of Hell
- the Malebolge!
Here is how you matched up against all the
levels:
Take the Dante's Inferno
Test
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Slick
Semi-Nuub
Registered: 11/7/2003 Member Is Offline
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| posted on 30/1/2004 at 17:25 |
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Good point but I see a few differences between UO stat loss and RoT PD.
In UO stst loss was more or less a punishment for playing the game in a way
that OSI didnt want you to. If you played a PK then you were forced to deal
with facing stat loss. In RoT (details are sketchy of course), it seems
that you have to choose to be in a PD situation. Its not so much a
punishment more like a very high added risk factor for attempting something
that can yield great reward. Like trying to seize control of a guild or
plunder a high level dungeon.
Also, in UO, char building is a major time consuming pain in the ass. Going
from what I read, in Rot char building will be much easier. So if you do
lose a char your not doomed to macro and 8x8 for the next 2 weeks.
I dont know how this game will turn out or how PD will work but I can
envision some interesting scenarios. Your main char is getting old and may
be dead soon. Knowing this you decide to gamble and take him to a PD
dungeon. You have a few heart pounding close calls but you make it out with
a kick ass magic sword. The next morning that char wakes up dead but you
play on as his son weilding the sword his father risked his life to get.
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ThurstonofGL
Spammer
Registered: 13/10/2002 Location: Washington, DC Member Is Offline Mood: None
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| posted on 30/1/2004 at 17:38 |
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The stat loss in UO was also doubly an issue because you were marked as
permanently aggressor (red). Since people could attack you with no
repercussions, but any fight you were in had the stat-loss posibility, it
was a matter of having double-risk added. Now, if stat loss required you
to be the aggressor and applied whether or not you were red, that would
have been a little more reasonable. Of course, the problem there was the
bugs that allowed you to make someone else flagged as aggressor.
I don't mind the idea of an aggressive player having more to lose in the
forms of skill or stat loss. I think that is very reasonable given the
advantage a PK/theif/looter player has over the rest of the community. But
I am not sure that every other player in the universe should be able to PD
that character any time that they wish to. Nor do I think the average
farmer should live in fear of being PD'd by any wandering jerk.
However, the dangerous dungeons, duels to the death, and PD as risk for
aggressive players are all very reasonable uses of PD that would make the
game more fun and balanced.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary and
those that don't.
The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Eigth Level of Hell
- the Malebolge!
Here is how you matched up against all the
levels:
Take the Dante's Inferno
Test
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Draxous
I asked Nieves for a cool name.
Registered: 24/4/2003 Location: Michigan in teh 313 Member Is Offline Mood: Untouchable
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| posted on 30/1/2004 at 18:21 |
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quote:
Originally posted by ThurstonofGL
I agree with PD all the way.. but it does need some tweaking.
Yeah.. especially in the "you lose connection because your ISP is being
stupid atm" situations. Other then that, I like it. I think that would be
the most frustrating thing...
You attack someone.. lose conn.. come back and have to start all over. That
is the one aspect of permadeath I don't like in online gaming...
but otherwise I'm with ya
You love my style!
I am a bushman and I live in XvekeZ bush!
Nieves cant get in my bush so hes jealous!
My avatar owns!
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