zimbermen
Semi-Nuub 
Registered: 18/7/2002 Member Is Offline Mood: giving
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 posted on 28/8/2003 at 10:44 |
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Higher luck = bad loot?
Ever since I have "improved" my suit to 930 luck I have been getting shitty
loot. I was getting pretty good stuff when I used a 800 luck suit. Is it
normal or there are "magical" numbers that I don't know of? 
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Poison Ivy
Semi-Nuub
Registered: 12/5/2003 Member Is Offline Mood: anti-social
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| posted on 28/8/2003 at 13:38 |
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re
I am hearing a few people say that. I have a luck suit that is 1140
medable and I farm a fair amount. I find my counterparts who farm in the
800's get a lot of really nice stuff like 1/3 and 1/2 jewelery while i get
consistently high resists pieces of armour with higher misc jewlery and
luck stuff. I pretty much only farm bloods.
I have a theory but I haven't been able to find anything that supports it.
Here it is though.....At my level of luck I have about a 50/50 chance of
getting the bump. At 800 or so its significantly lower. My idea is that
since the chance of getting the bump is lower at 800 the actual bump itself
on the item is higher. That is the only thing I can guess is happening
when people with 800 luck are getting valuable items all the time like 1/3
stuff while in all my farming I have never gotten one.
My other theory is I just have crappy luck no matter what my suit is 
I am really quite loveable once you get over the fact I just robbed you.
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Pearl
Non-Nuub 
Registered: 21/2/2003 Member Is Offline Mood: Pika Pi
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| posted on 28/8/2003 at 15:08 |
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quote:
My other theory is I just have crappy luck no matter what my suit is
I think this one's the right one.
Its called luck for a reason...
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American Psycho
Non-Nuub 
Registered: 16/11/2002 Member Is Offline Mood: ?
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| posted on 28/8/2003 at 15:58 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Pearl
quote:
My other theory is I just have crappy luck no matter what my suit is
I think this one's the right one.
Its called luck for a reason...
Exactly! I said osmething to that effect months ago. Thats all it is, LUCK.
You can blame it on luck inside of UO but its more than that. Its LUCK as
it is period.
Ive gotten one 1/3 ring before and I got it early on, proly ono of the 1st
10 1/3 items on the shard of Atl, before I even topped 450 luck.
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zimbermen
Semi-Nuub
Registered: 18/7/2002 Member Is Offline Mood: giving
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| posted on 29/8/2003 at 02:18 |
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Thank's for the replies! I have switched back to the 800 luck suit and
there is a clear difference in the loot I am getting. I hunt bloods for
items and good stuff have been popping back up after I switch back. The
other thing I notice is that I don't get the really high intensity stuff
that pops up once in a very long while when I used the 900 luck suit. So I
am wondering for all those who have 1000+ luck suit, it there really a big
difference in loot after 1000 luck??
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CyberWyld
Not a Nuub
Registered: 23/9/2002 Member Is Offline Mood: HOUSE
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| posted on 29/8/2003 at 03:57 |
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I did extensive research on this when AOS first came out. For two weeks
solid I did nothing but test the effects of luck. Say what you want
folks....but 800 luck is what works best for me. But it's like you said.
It depends on what you want. That super high luck will help you get that
UBER item. But 800 luck consistently gets you decent shit. Another THEROY
of mine was that anything over the 100th mark seems to matter. E.g. 820
luck is better than 810. It seemed that my 860 suit was WAY worse than my
800 luck suit. Almost like it was just giving me credit for 60 luck. I
dunno....we all basically don't know shit about it and it is just
that....LUCK. Those were just MY theories and findings.
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Mulac
Non-Nuub
Registered: 27/8/2003 Location: New Zealand Member Is Offline Mood: Mr Roboto
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| posted on 29/8/2003 at 04:14 |
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Your luck may be related to other environmental factors!
I have 972 luck currently and for the amount of time I camp bloods, I get
crap loot. So, I started thinking of different parameters that may
influence the whole loot property/intensity- luck relationship.
Let me start by saying I think OSI uses a crappy random number generator
(RNG). In fact, I think Mr Tact once said it was a simple call to
rand()!!! While practical/quick, rand() has issues. Ok, so think about
how many calls to the RNG are required...anything that requires a "dice
roll" would be a call to the RNG. So, for even a single person playing on
a shard that is still alot of RNG calls.
Now, factor in hundreds/thousands of people on a shard all calling the
RNG!!! The calls to RNG would be less than microseconds apart! So,
whatever seed the RNG is using HAS TO BE able to simulate "instant
randomness". As we all know, conventional RNGs are only considered
pseudo-random generators because they are not truely statisically random
number generators, ie they do not produce "instant randomness". For
example, most use clock time as the seed or CPU temperature to 8 decimal
places.
The problem with using sequential seeds is some "sequence clusters" of seed
numbers all produce the same or roughly the same random number! Assume
they are using clock time. So, the seeds sent to RNG might be something
like 3245678 3245679 3245680 etc... If those seeds are ones in a "sequence
cluster" and alot of calls to the RNG are being made, then the features
controlled by luck would all be similiar!
So, this would be why loot is usually similiar as in multiple helms, leg
armor, jewelry, weapons, etc... in the same kill. As a population grows on
a shard (throughout the day/night) you will notice this occurring more
frequently. This to me is an indicator that more calls are being made to
the RNG and "sequence clusters" are being encountered more frequently.
This same concept can be applied to the number of properties on an item and
the range of intensity on the items. Recall that luck controls 1) bump in
number of items in a kill, 2) bump in number of properties per item, and 3)
bump in intensity value for each property of each item!!! Damn, that is
alot of RNG calls for a single kill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok, so what about lower luck getting better items? Simple. Recall that
the higher the luck the more BUMPS you will get in 1)-3). So, if you have
a lower luck, the bumps occur less frequently. Fewer calls to the RNG
(especially when the shard is busy) will produce a longer distance between
seed values and avoid the occurrence of "sequence clusters".
I really wonder if OSI has any concept this is occurring? This whole RNG
problem is why OSI has so much trouble with bugs, when releasing a new
publish even after extensive QA and limited live shard testing. The
phenomemon I describe may require the full weight of a busy shard to see,
and OSI just doesnt have that population availability, for testing, prior
to publish to all live shards.
The real unknown is how OSI handles so many calls to the RNG? If they
queue the calls it creates a whole additional level of confusion. If they
use calls to different RNG functions depending on use it will help, but not
fix the problem. For example, combat_rng(), loot_rng(), etc... Bottom
line is the multiple calls are still ultimately to rand() *eewwwww*
So, what you really want to know is how to use this information to maximize
your loot quality...
Hell if I know :-) but I will tell you what I do...
BASIC RULE...you want long seed sequence distances for anything that is
sent to the RNG regarding your loot :-)
1) You can keep your luck high, but the higher the luck the more calls to
the RNG are made each kill thus causing all loot in the kill to be
similiar, BUT the intensities should be higher.
2) Play when the shard is not busy.
3) Of course monsters have set loot templates, so find the toughest
monsters dropping the best loot to begin with.
So, I hope these tips can help you "create your own luck" ;-)
O, and yes I do have a few graduate degrees in areas related to what I
discuss above *laugh* I have in fact run into the "sequence clusters"
problem in my own research 8-( and it sucked hard!
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Galrahn
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| posted on 29/8/2003 at 19:25 |
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Wait a minute, I actually sortof followed that...
Wouldnt that mean that the optimal value for luck would be between 800-900
though and not over 1000? Think about it, you want to be able to get the
really great intensity stuff which starts at around 800, but you don't
necessarily want to make too many RNG calls for number of properties,
number of items, etc.. which definately occurs over 1000.
At 800 I notice the intensity changes for loot, at 1000 my experience
(hunting with those with +1000) is that the number of items goes back up as
well as the intensity but the distribution of intensity gets placed on all
of them, making each item have a nice property but none of them uber. So by
applying what you are saying to what we have seen occur, it seems like at
around 800 you are not going to get too many items but you still get the
possibility for the RNG to pull you back high intensity, thus you would
increase your chances of seeing one high intensity item instead of several
medium intensity items.
Because it takes more than one high intensity attribute to make a single
item good, but if you spread out those high intensity attributes among more
items it makes the quality of the loot less than it would be if the RNG was
applying the high intensity to few objects.
Did that make sense?
Galrahn
Black Company
I am called many things...
Lineage 2 - Sieghardt
Non Factors, Inc. PR Manager
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Poison Ivy
Semi-Nuub
Registered: 12/5/2003 Member Is Offline Mood: anti-social
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| posted on 29/8/2003 at 20:36 |
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re
Yes I think it does. Unfortunately that means I now am going to have to
be really ticked at the effort I put into making my uber luck suit
I am really quite loveable once you get over the fact I just robbed you.
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Manuel
Not a Nuub
Registered: 6/11/2002 Member Is Offline Mood: Apricot
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| posted on 29/8/2003 at 21:52 |
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I thought (remembering some crap that a dev spouted in passing when *first*
describing luck) that the higher luck you have the better the item is
likely to be, but the higher the luck you have the less likely you are to
get more items...
This meant that there was a balancing act between going for a few really
good items or lots of pretty good items.
Of couse, they probably implemented this but the "relations" team don't
know, care or understand and are confusing people as usual... 
[Edited on 29/8/2003 by Manuel : naff typing skills...  ]
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zimbermen
Semi-Nuub
Registered: 18/7/2002 Member Is Offline Mood: giving
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| posted on 30/8/2003 at 03:43 |
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OK! I did more testing with my 800 luck and 900 luck suit. (couldn't quite
get to 1000 luck yet) I found that I can get higher intensity stuff with
the 900 luck suit but only once in a really full moon. However with an 800
luck suit I can pull decent stuff in about one third of the time. So I
think 900 luck is kind of the beginning "phase" for better roll but the %
of getting good roll doesn't improve until you get to 1000+ luck.
Since enchancing armour and weapon is also another "mystery", I am crossing
my fingers until I can gather more high luck pieces to "destroy".
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extsr2001
Semi-Nuub
Registered: 31/8/2003 Member Is Offline
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| posted on 31/8/2003 at 13:06 |
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977 Luck
I am going to back track and test this too, I have 977 luck on my suit. I
drop about 100 Blood eles a run and get nothing special.
I also see monsters loot tables as broken too. Ever cap a Shadow Wyrm only
to find a regular ring or bracelet on it? wtf is that? Broken Loot table is
what..
Balrons too have crumby loot in comparison to the lesser Blood Elementals,
Ancient Wyrms too seem worthless for effort.
I found most of my killer items at about 500 luck to be honest, that is
when I got good luck ranges and excellent LRC items. I havent seen a LRC
above 14 in over 500 Blood Elemental Kills.
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Silence
Not a Nuub
Registered: 4/5/2003 Member Is Offline Mood: Token UOPGer
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| posted on 10/10/2003 at 21:56 |
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Just bringing this back up, to see if anyone else has worked on it?
THanks!
S
Righto!
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Cronholm
Semi-Nuub
Registered: 26/7/2003 Location: Sweden Member Is Offline Mood: Eviiiiil
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| posted on 10/10/2003 at 23:28 |
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Hmm i remember i go my uber item with only about 600 luck
It was a 64 res Meddable Gorget..
Not sure how "uber" this is?
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GreekGod
Addicted T-Hunter 
Registered: 2/6/2003 Location: Atlantic, Florida, Greece Member Is Offline Mood: Heavy MetAL!!!
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| posted on 10/10/2003 at 23:57 |
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You know guys, this whole luck thing always pissed me off. Why the hell
they invented luck, I don't know. Unfortunately, luck suits give 0 resists,
and they are only for tamers... I have a luck medable suit that reaches 650
luck but my provoker cannot wear it, unless I fight ogre lords. Rest of the
monsters, cast a spell on you and half your energy bar is gone Anyway, I always
show up with 250 luck and 70 fire resist, doing my T-hunts that thank god
are not based on luck...
Point of this post: luck sucks, camping of monsters to get some good items
sucks, item based gameplay sucks!
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Silence
Not a Nuub
Registered: 4/5/2003 Member Is Offline Mood: Token UOPGer
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| posted on 11/10/2003 at 02:17 |
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Yea, umm. Ok.
So anyone ELSE done any testing?
S
We can complain about the game, but complaining about people playing the
game the way the people that MADE the game MAKE them play the game...
Nevermind, I'm confused.
Righto!
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Mulac
Non-Nuub
Registered: 27/8/2003 Location: New Zealand Member Is Offline Mood: Mr Roboto
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| posted on 11/10/2003 at 06:17 |
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I commented about some changes in another thread
http://boards.powergamers.net/viewthread.php?tid=12477 />
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GreekGod
Addicted T-Hunter
Registered: 2/6/2003 Location: Atlantic, Florida, Greece Member Is Offline Mood: Heavy MetAL!!!
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| posted on 11/10/2003 at 07:33 |
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Interesting...
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Manuel
Not a Nuub
Registered: 6/11/2002 Member Is Offline Mood: Apricot
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| posted on 11/10/2003 at 14:28 |
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Now... I've definitely recently seen a table that OSI kicked out...
just can't seem to find it at the moment
The higer your luck is, the higher the change of bumping an item's
properties. However, the higher you go, the less there is of a chance to
increase the number of items generated...
Therefore there is a certain point where you'll gain more items and they'll
better and another point where you'll gain less items but they'll be better
items... in short it's a nice little balancing act :p If your luck's really
high when you get an item, you get a reasonlable chance of getting it
improved... however you have to get the item in the first place. If your
luck is less, you have a greater chance to get more items, but a smaller
chance of these items being improved...
Now if only I could find the table...
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Mulac
Non-Nuub
Registered: 27/8/2003 Location: New Zealand Member Is Offline Mood: Mr Roboto
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| posted on 11/10/2003 at 23:42 |
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Luck does not reduce your number of items!
Manual, this is absolutely untrue. If you can find the table it would go a
long way to proving OSI wrong because on their website they specifically
say that LUCK influences the amount of items you can get in the loot
depending on monster template!
Check out what OSI says here:
http://guide.uo.com/itemproperties_4.html />
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Manuel
Not a Nuub
Registered: 6/11/2002 Member Is Offline Mood: Apricot
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| posted on 12/10/2003 at 12:54 |
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Mulac... I know - I just wish I could find the comment from the dev team
member who actually implemented the luck / item count code... (I don't have
a lifetime to wait for stratics to load).
It was odd, because the dev clearly stated that the chance to get extra
items decreased with higher luck, but the chance to improve a given item
got higher... even at that time I could check on other OSI posts and they
stated that high luck affected the drop count - which nicely contradicts
what the dev stated. Who do I believe the dev that put the code in, the
"community relations monkey" who lives on stratics or the team behind
uo.com?
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Mulac
Non-Nuub
Registered: 27/8/2003 Location: New Zealand Member Is Offline Mood: Mr Roboto
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| posted on 12/10/2003 at 13:49 |
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I feel your pain Mannie 8(
Believe NO-ONE :-)
Basically, even if the last word lies with the OSI programmer who
implemented the system, they really have no idea how the code they wrote
works in the live game 8-(
I have already put the OSI programmers into shock over a simple request
asking them to store all the results from their calls to rand() for a
single day, for each shard. Of course tracking what the rand() was for as
well. Then asking them to review the kind of numbers they are generating
and if they make sense with what they expected from the design they
implemented.
From what little they have replied back to me about, they are finding some
VERY STRANGE things going on. So, currently I believe that NOTHING in the
game that involves using randomness is working as designed by OSI!!!
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Stizuner
Nuub
Registered: 26/10/2003 Member Is Offline
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| posted on 26/10/2003 at 03:56 |
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Problem with luck is simple.. I have tested it.
The game doesnt understand 3 digit luck. If you have 125 luck piece, the
game will see it as 25. Yes your status bar says 125. But the game dont
comprehend it. Test it out.. remove any 100+ pieces from your suit and
replace them with 99's and see the diffrence.
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Ryle Tarn
Semi-Nuub
Registered: 17/2/2003 Member Is Offline Mood: Happy
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| posted on 26/10/2003 at 04:21 |
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Whatever it is we can all agree that the Luck in UO is messed up and needs
some fixen end of story
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Mulac
Non-Nuub
Registered: 27/8/2003 Location: New Zealand Member Is Offline Mood: Mr Roboto
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| posted on 26/10/2003 at 05:56 |
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The digit issue is present this is true...
BUT, the deeper issue is the RNG. Even the best RNG algorithms can not
handle the quantity of numbers required in any given 24 hour period.
I could also make a counter-argument that as the luck score increases the
number of calls to the RNG increases and the extra "load" on the RNG
produces bogus numbers that result in the crappy loot people are seeing
with higher luck.
But as just stated we can call agree that luck is definately broken!
[Edited on 26/10/2003 by Mulac]
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